ITP - 102: PGCE, IQTS, and Training International Teachers

Kent: Welcome back to the International Teacher Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Cat the Cat Guy, and I'd like to welcome JP Mint. How you doing, JP Mint?

JP: Hello, good morning from Ottawa, Canada. My mom's basement this time.

Kent: I spent a lot of time in basements. Have you, JP Mint?

JP: You know, Canada has a lot of basements and they're so cool. I grew up in basements. That might explain my subterranean leanings.

Kent: Joining me today also is the Single Guy, Greg. How you doing there, Greg?

Greg: Well, I'm a little nervous because I keep having to go on video with you guys. This is like our third episode on video or fourth, something like that. And it's crazy for me. But otherwise, hey, welcome back, everybody.

Kent: Wow. Who's our guest, Kent?

Kent: Well, before I introduce the guest, I just wanted to say we kept hoping you'd be better looking, but three weeks now, pretty much the same.

Greg: I know.

Kent: But we do have someone who's very good looking. Our special guest is from the University of Sunderland—did I say that correct?—and from Newcastle. I'd like to introduce Greg Larmouth. Greg Larmouth, welcome to the program.

Greg Larmouth: Thank you, everyone. I think it's a bit unfair, Kent, that you lied to the listeners saying that I'm good looking. They can't see it.

Kent: They will see it because we're going with video. They very well might see this, Greg.

Kent: So Greg, why don't you give us the elevator pitch? Tell us a few words about yourself. Introduce yourself to the ITP crowd.

Greg Larmouth: Now you've put me on the spot. So I have worked at the university now for coming up to six years, but previously I was working as a high school English and media studies teacher, hence the interest in podcasting and all things media studies.

Greg Larmouth: So I worked in high schools in the UK, decided to take a little bit of a break from teaching and from being in the classroom, but didn't really think it was going to be a permanent removal from the classroom.

Greg Larmouth: Then one thing led to another. I got a job at the university working in student support, did a little bit of mental health support with students, and then from there did some peer learning sessions.

Greg Larmouth: We built a peer learning scheme at the university and that kind of got my face noticed a little bit within the university. They trained me up, they've put me through my master's degree, and they have now got me working in the international teacher training team.

JP: What is that? I want to know. International teacher training team—you take international teachers and train them?

Greg Larmouth: So this is where I guess my background, what I do, is going to be of potentially some interest to yourselves.

Greg Larmouth: How familiar are you with teacher training within the UK system?

JP: You're talking about like the PGCE.

Greg Larmouth: Yes. So I'll start at the beginning. We have a teacher training team in the UK where we put teachers through their PGCE. They gain qualified teacher status in the UK and that allows them to then go on to teach in the UK and overseas in most cases as well.

Greg Larmouth: What we've got in our team is slightly different. We do it all through distance learning. We'll do it via Teams—recorded lectures, seminars—just as you would in person, but all online.

Greg Larmouth: It's a one-year course. At the end of it, depending on which course you do, we offer a number of routes. We do PGCE, and—

JP: Can you explain what that acronym means?

Greg Larmouth: Of course. So the PGCE is the Postgraduate Certificate in Education in the UK.

Greg Larmouth: When you do it in the UK, you get PGCE with qualified teacher status at the end, and then you go into what's classed as an ECT, which is an early career teacher period of two years.

Greg Larmouth: What we do with our PGCE is you can either do it with or without the qualified teacher status now.

Greg Larmouth: So in the last two years, there's been an introduction through our Department for Education for an IQTS, which is the internationally recognized qualified teacher status. That's beginning to be quite a popular choice.

Greg: Greg, if I can interrupt you, does that mean that someone who is interested in the IQTS would get the PGCE first, then the IQTS?

Greg Larmouth: With the IQTS, you'd do it all in one. So you'll come out with a one-year PGCE, but you'll also gain the IQTS qualification alongside that.

Greg: And to clarify, do they have to be UK citizens to do this?

Greg Larmouth: No. This is one of the things—because there's a big teacher retention and recruitment issue across the world, but particularly in the UK—we're conscious that we have a big issue with teacher retention and recruitment.

Greg Larmouth: So I think part of the thought process when the Department for Education came up with this concept was that it would allow us to potentially get teachers from across the globe automatically qualified and ready to go into classrooms in the UK.

Greg Larmouth: But the flip side is that you're also gaining a lot of qualified teachers around the world who may be more inclined to travel and go to more exotic parts of the world.

Kent: One of the slogans for our program is international teaching—the best kept secret in education. Is international teaching a secret in the UK, or is there more of a buzz about it?

Greg Larmouth: I can only speak from my experience knowing teachers in the UK who’ve qualified in the UK, who I’ve worked with, who’ve then gone overseas and taught as international teachers.

Greg Larmouth: I think it's probably more well known than it has been, but it is still very much a little bit of a secret.

Greg Larmouth: I talked earlier about how I took some time out of teaching. At that point, I was torn between taking time out or going overseas as an international teacher. But I was a bit of a scaredy cat and didn’t take that plunge.

Greg Larmouth: I had recently gotten married, didn’t have any children, so it probably would have been the right time. Even then, I still had apprehensions about taking myself and my wife to the other side of the world.

Greg Larmouth: I was also probably a bit naive about where I could go. At that point, about seven years ago, the only place I really knew about was the Middle East, particularly the UAE.

Greg Larmouth: I hadn’t done enough research to realize there were so many other parts of the world I could have gone to, which probably would have changed my perspective as well.

Greg: You got a good point. I'll give you another secret though, Greg, is that there is no wrong time to head overseas. So baby, child of four, child of ten, child of seventeen—your child can go to the international school where you teach very often for free and get a great education as well.

JP: So there's no wrong time, but it's not for everybody.

Greg: And I think that's what Greg was definitely bringing up. It's not for everybody. There are certain times that it works better to pull the trigger, so to speak, to actually go overseas and do it.

Greg: But it's not always going to be for you. Hopefully you'll rethink that though, and at some point, like JP says, even with a young family, it's still a great choice for many of us.

Greg Larmouth: Yeah, absolutely. And it's always something in the back of my head that I think about. If things weren’t to work out or I decided I wanted to get away from higher education and teacher training, it would probably be the first thing on my list of potential avenues to go down.

Greg: After this episode, you're going to be going overseas. Not just the UAE—I know it.

Kent: Welcome to our new international teacher, Greg Larmouth and his family.

Greg: We're a little bit positive on this show, to tell you the truth.

JP: I'm interested to hear about how big this program is.

Greg Larmouth: So this may come as a surprise. At the University of Sunderland, we are one of eight providers of IQTS, and there are even more providers of the PGCE without IQTS.

Greg Larmouth: For the academic year just gone, we had over 100 trainees on the IQTS. Across the PGCE and IQTS combined, we had over 500 for the year.

Greg Larmouth: That’s not uncommon. Usually we’re looking at around 400 to 500 every year.

JP: Yeah, I know a few friends and clients who have gotten certified through University of Sunderland—an Indonesian teacher and a Brazilian teacher.

JP: They were very appreciative of the fact that they didn’t need to be in the UK to do it, and they’re both now teaching in international schools thanks to it.

Greg Larmouth: Yeah, to be fair, I get that I’m an employee of the university, so I’m going to speak highly of it, but I do think it’s a brilliant opportunity.

Greg Larmouth: We get a lot of people, particularly UK residents, who go overseas traveling and end up teaching in local schools where they don’t need a qualification.

Greg Larmouth: Then they get the bug for teaching, realize how good it is, but also realize they haven’t had formal training. A lot of our market comes from that.

JP: Greg, the IQTS—what makes it unique? Is it geared toward international teachers, or is it just the recognition?

Greg Larmouth: If you wanted to come and teach in the UK, you wouldn’t need IQTS. But if you want to teach internationally without necessarily coming back to the UK, IQTS isn’t strictly required either.

Greg Larmouth: The main difference is recognition. It’s Department for Education–approved, UK-recognized, and recognized in other parts of the world.

Greg Larmouth: I think there are around eight countries that recognize IQTS as a kind of gold standard when it comes to teaching abroad.

Greg Larmouth: It unlocks a lot of doors, especially if you want the option to return to the UK without requalifying.

Greg: What about visas? If an international teacher wants to teach in the UK, they still need sponsorship, right?

Greg Larmouth: Yes, there would still be that hurdle. I don’t know all the details, but there’s definitely another step when it comes to visas.

Greg Larmouth: The vision from the Department for Education is that if you have a highly qualified teacher with IQTS, schools may be more willing to sponsor them.

Greg Larmouth: But from what I understand, the UK can be one of the more difficult places to secure a visa.

JP: I have a question about qualifications. If someone wants to get into international education and pursue IQTS, what do they need to get started?

Greg Larmouth: You need to have an undergraduate degree. It doesn’t have to be from the UK—it can be from anywhere.

Greg Larmouth: We have a team that evaluates qualifications to see how they compare to UK standards.

Greg Larmouth: Sometimes degrees don’t fully match the UK equivalent, which can create a stumbling block.

Greg Larmouth: But there is flexibility. If someone has strong classroom experience, we can sometimes take that into account.

Greg Larmouth: If someone isn’t sure, we encourage them to apply anyway. We assess early in the process, so they won’t get far in before finding out if there’s an issue.

JP: And if they don’t meet the requirements?

Greg Larmouth: It varies. Some may need to do additional coursework or a top-up degree. Others may just need more classroom experience before applying again.

Greg Larmouth: It really depends on the individual case.

Kent: So with that many people coming through your program, you must be seeing trainees from all over the world.

Greg Larmouth: Yes, absolutely. We get people from all over the place. Bermuda, Barbados, all the way across to Hong Kong and China, which is probably our biggest market.

Kent: The old British Empire, if you want.

Greg Larmouth: I’ll formally apologize for that.

Greg: I love this question. And I am the new Greg, by the way. Mr. Greg Larmouth, I’m the new guy.

Greg: We’re asking our audience to reach out to us after listening to this episode. They should tell us whether they’ve heard of your program and maybe ask you questions on how to get into it.

Greg: We’ll get into that later, but I do want to clear one thing up. It’s not just one of the best-kept secrets. We are the best-kept secret in education—international education.

Greg: I think it’s a great secret that you guys are getting out there.

Kent: I think you asked a question before all that, Greg. Do you remember it?

Greg: I think I remember now. You were asking how well known international education is in the UK.

Kent: That’s right.

Greg Larmouth: Yeah, I’d say it’s still a bit of a secret. From my experience, I knew people who had gone abroad, but it wasn’t something that was widely talked about.

Greg Larmouth: And I think for a lot of people, it’s just the fear of taking that leap. It’s a big move, especially if you’ve got a partner or family.

Greg Larmouth: I was probably quite naive at the time. I didn’t realize how many options there were beyond places like the UAE.

Kent: That’s a big part of what we try to do here—show people there are more options.

Greg: Yeah, open their eyes a little bit.

JP: Exactly.

Greg Larmouth: And I think that’s really important. Once people understand the range of opportunities, it becomes a lot more appealing.

Kent: Let’s talk about the structure of your program a bit more. Are your students actively teaching while they’re doing the course?

Greg Larmouth: Yes, that’s one of the key differences between our international program and the on-campus PGCE in the UK.

Greg Larmouth: In the UK, trainees are usually full-time students and not employed as teachers during that year. But internationally, our trainees are almost always working full-time in schools.

Greg Larmouth: They have bills to pay, families to support, so they’re teaching while completing the qualification.

Greg Larmouth: For those who aren’t employed, they need to have a school placement lined up. Everyone has to be in a school environment.

JP: So they’re collecting evidence while they’re teaching?

Greg Larmouth: Exactly. They complete tasks that contribute to a portfolio, which is assessed against the UK teaching standards.

Greg Larmouth: Depending on the course, they might need to teach for a certain number of weeks or days—sometimes 12 weeks, sometimes up to 120 days.

Greg: And do they have someone supervising them at the school?

Greg Larmouth: Yes. Each trainee has a mentor, usually a more experienced teacher, who supports them, observes lessons, and provides feedback.

Greg Larmouth: They also complete regular reviews and contribute to the trainee’s portfolio.

Greg Larmouth: In addition, we have professional practice tutors—teachers we employ around the world—who can carry out external observations.

Greg Larmouth: And sometimes, members of our university team travel to visit trainees in person.

JP: That must be incredible.

Greg Larmouth: It really is. This year I was in Saudi Arabia, then Dubai, and then Muscat in Oman.

Greg: That’s amazing.

Greg Larmouth: It’s a great opportunity. Coming from a small village near Newcastle, I never imagined I’d be traveling to places like Hong Kong or the Middle East.

Greg Larmouth: But it’s also meaningful for the trainees. They really appreciate having someone from the university come out to see them.

Greg Larmouth: When I visited Riyadh, the trainees were so thankful. And for me, it felt like a culmination of their hard work over the year.

Kent: That face-to-face connection makes a big difference.

Greg Larmouth: Absolutely.

Kent: What percentage would you say are international teachers versus UK citizens in your program?

Greg Larmouth: Off the top of my head, it’s probably more international. I’d estimate around a 60/40 split toward international teachers.

Greg Larmouth: We get a lot of Irish teachers based in the Middle East who take the IQTS so they can return to Ireland in the future.

Greg: Did Brexit affect British teachers teaching in Europe at all?

Greg Larmouth: I’m not entirely sure, as I wasn’t part of the team at that time. I imagine it created some stress and uncertainty.

Greg Larmouth: But I think for those already working in Europe, they were often able to apply for residency or citizenship in their host country.

Greg Larmouth: And for those with dual citizenship, like Irish passports, many were still able to move freely within the EU.

Kent: I think a lot of our listeners will be curious about Newcastle and Sunderland. They might be Googling it right now.

JP: Because the University of Sunderland is in Newcastle, right?

Greg Larmouth: That might offend a few people.

Kent: Shots fired.

Greg: I think we need an apology letter.

Greg Larmouth: Sunderland is a city. It’s just south of Newcastle. There’s a big rivalry between the two—especially in football.

Greg Larmouth: Newcastle is probably more globally recognized, but Sunderland is its own city with its own identity.

JP: Noted. Apologies to Sunderland.

Greg: We have a form letter for that.

Greg Larmouth: As a Newcastle fan, I find it quite funny, but as a Sunderland employee, I have to be careful.

Kent: That rivalry sounds a lot like sports rivalries in North America.

Greg Larmouth: It’s very similar. Local pride, lots of history, and plenty of banter.

Greg: Speaking of sports, I’m a Green Bay Packers fan.

Greg Larmouth: Same here. It’s actually my NFL team.

Greg: Now we’re talking.

Kent: This episode is going to boost our American listenership.

Greg Larmouth: It’s a unique team, too. It’s community-owned, which is rare.

Greg: Exactly. Not owned by a billionaire.

Greg Larmouth: Which is quite different from football clubs in Europe, where ownership and investment can play a big role.

Greg Larmouth: Newcastle, for example, was recently bought by a Saudi investment fund, making them one of the wealthiest clubs on paper.

Greg: But they can’t just spend freely, right?

Greg Larmouth: Correct. There are financial fair play rules that limit spending based on revenue.

Greg Larmouth: So even if you have wealthy owners, you can’t just buy all the best players immediately.

Kent: That’s interesting.

Greg Larmouth: It creates a more balanced system, at least in theory.